About "understanding" false teachers
Here are excerpts from a commentary I made tonight on a comment about my most recent post, and following them are a few more thoughts of mine.
"It is a common debater's tactic to impute attitudes and motives to your opponent that he does not have. To quote St. Paul and the Popes against public dissenters is simply that, to quote them; it is not to liken oneself to them. And to point out that dissenters dissent is not 'hatred.'
"Only God can judge the state of our souls. We all need His mercy. But that does not mean we should be silent when people make blatant attacks on the Church and the right to life, when glaring problems beset the Church and when unwary Catholics are being told that sins are not sins."
I would add that being forceful and forthright in tone does not equal, as some think, lacking compassion and understanding. Remember that the first three Spiritual Works of MERCY are to Counsel the Doubtful, to Instruct the Ignorant and to Admonish the Sinner. Sounding "understanding" is not going to convert longtime, obstinate, prideful public dissenters who dare to deceive religion teachers into going home and parroting their false doctrines to Catholic youth.
We would protect a child from a rattlesnake; how much more do we need to protect our children and their immortal souls from evil, death-dealing, soul-killing heresy!
St. Vibiana, holy virgin and martyr and patroness of our Archdiocese, pray for us and for our Catholic teachers and Catholic children! Amen.
"It is a common debater's tactic to impute attitudes and motives to your opponent that he does not have. To quote St. Paul and the Popes against public dissenters is simply that, to quote them; it is not to liken oneself to them. And to point out that dissenters dissent is not 'hatred.'
"Only God can judge the state of our souls. We all need His mercy. But that does not mean we should be silent when people make blatant attacks on the Church and the right to life, when glaring problems beset the Church and when unwary Catholics are being told that sins are not sins."
I would add that being forceful and forthright in tone does not equal, as some think, lacking compassion and understanding. Remember that the first three Spiritual Works of MERCY are to Counsel the Doubtful, to Instruct the Ignorant and to Admonish the Sinner. Sounding "understanding" is not going to convert longtime, obstinate, prideful public dissenters who dare to deceive religion teachers into going home and parroting their false doctrines to Catholic youth.
We would protect a child from a rattlesnake; how much more do we need to protect our children and their immortal souls from evil, death-dealing, soul-killing heresy!
St. Vibiana, holy virgin and martyr and patroness of our Archdiocese, pray for us and for our Catholic teachers and Catholic children! Amen.
posted by Quintero at 10:06 PM
27 Comments:
Hey Q
Don't get too frazzled by all the fracas here about how you're going about things wrong... you're doing it YOUR way which is how it should and must be... anyone who wants something different can go somewhere else and find it...
NONE of us can be absolutely sure we're doing what we do the right or best way- so we pray hard about it, listen to useful advise and try not to spend our time second-guessing ourselves or trying to please others so much (our vertical relationships) that we lose focus and energy on our God- pleasing (Vertical relationship).
I'me stoopid. Should read:
trying to please others so much (our HORIZONTAL relationships)
One last point. You say:
"Sounding "understanding" is not going to convert longtime, obstinate, prideful public dissenters who dare to deceive religion teachers into going home and parroting their false doctrines to Catholic youth."
But, BEING understanding might convert those who are quietly attending masses loaded with liturgcal abuse, working in parishes that sponsor pro-choice speakers etc. Not everyone at St. Monica's is obsitnate, prideful, etc. Some are just ignorant. It is therefore our job to enlighten them. Perhaps the aggressive approach won't do a lot to bring those people over.
Well said, Aaron...
I see no evidence to think that an approach different from Q's current one would be more effective than that which he now uses: it's pure conjecture as far as i can see which makes these objections seem like no more than admonishments to stop doing whatever you're currently doing the way you do it just in case the results might be better...
Yeah, and they might be worse!
As I said Blogger is more than eager to host another blog which is less "aggressive" or "zealous" and "partisan". But Q's way is what brought us old readers here and keeps us here- if you're not angry about what he's angry about then start yer own blog and we'll see if it's half as good...
Quintero, have you actually tried to find out what you can do about you-know-who? I mean like to actually contact the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, or some other group that works for the Vatican??
Andrew...probably not, Mahony fuels Quixote's fire...no Mahony=no blog or self validation
Dearn Friends,
Anyone who doesn't speak out about the abuse of the Clergy in Orange County and LA doesn't have love or truth in their heart. MOST catholics in that part of Ca. are protestant and donj't even know it. They are being loved right into HELL by a decietful immoral clergy and laity. The truth hurts! That's why they crucified Jesus. AND that's why they hate Peter and this blog.
John
Dear Anonymous 11:23 p.m.,
Thanks for the input and thanks for your concern. Yes, it is not a good idea to fret about pleasing others or to overly second-guess ourselves. Remember what Davy Crockett said? "Be all ways sure you're right, then go, ahead."
(Davy wasn't necessarily the best at spelling and punctuation.)
What I have been trying to do in the past few posts and comments is not to justify my approach but to show the fallacies in various commenters' objections. They are heard so often in our country today that they need refuting.
Dear Aaron,
Well, would you like to lay out for us your "being understanding" and "less aggressive" approach, with some specific steps?
Dear Andrew,
Well, many, many people have been contacting the Vatican Embassy in D.C. and various dicasteries at the Vatican for 20 years now.
And "Anonymous" is being silly when he says that I and all those Catholics need "self-validation" and to have our fires stoked." It would be so much nicer to be able to write in support of a bishop who did much more for orthodoxy and for babies' right to life.
Dear Anonymous 11:46 a.m.,
Thanks very much for your support and kind words!
Dear saint johns army,
Thank you much, John, for your support. We all need to speak up when the Church is under attack and when false teachings threaten so many, especially the kids.
Quintero:
Sure. Why don't you attend some more traditionally oriented masses and discuss how they are meaningful to you. I am a parishioner at St. Victor in West Hollywood. There is incense, gregorian chant at the vigil mass, a traditional choir on Sunday, communion is received at the altar rail, and Monsignor Murphy talks about sin all the time. Is it perfect? No. Do I still consider the SSPX "nuclear option?" (hat tip: David Chute) Yes.
Anyway, I'd like to hear you tell some traditionalist success stories. Mahoney needs to go. I agree. We get it. But the constant "ecclesial ambulance chasing," as someone put it nicely, is getting tired. In short spend less time getting people angry about liturgical abuses and spend more time getting people excited about the good stuff. Thre are indult masses every Sunday except the third in this town, maybe if they were really crowded. . .
http://www.catholicculture.org/highlights/highlights.cfm?id=98
Aaron,
The Indult? Ohhhh, you mean the helicopter Mass? One Tridentine every Sunday (Except the third Sunday there is none) a month in a different part of the county in an archdiocese of 8 million. How generous!
St. Victors. One parish (I’ll give you St. Peter Chanel and Sts. Peter & Paul as well) for 8 million! Hollywood is a long drive for me.
I live ten minutes from an Independent Chapel where the Mass is said with reverence and the pope is prayed for every day. Instead, out of obedience to my Cardinal, I take my children to my local parish where the pope is regularly mocked and the mass is pathetic.
Keep up the good work Q!
And let’s keep praying for our Cardinal and our Archdiocese.
BVMM
"Pipe down"
I’m sorry. I didn’t realize you’re the hall monitor here.
"An attempt at sarcasm?"
I’d call it umbrage.
"What was your post about....exactly?"
I was sharing my liturgical experience in our archdiocese that is much more common than Aaron’s.
I suppose my point is that this blog and its host have a certain POV. It's presumptuous to tell him how to run it.
Anonymous:
Maybe if people actually attended the indult--I was there a few weeks ago and "sparsely attended" is a generous description for it--we would have some more traction in demanding a permanent parish or two. Maybe if our blogs described the beauty and purity of the traditional mass instead of bitching and moaning about the liberals, people who don't know any better would be attracted.
But, you guys seem to think whining is going to get it done faster. Good luck!
BTW, I AGREE with Quintero's POV. I just think repeating it over and over in a surly tone is counter-productive to our cause. That's what this is about isn't it? It's not just about Quintero's freedom of expression, is it? He can blog about whatever he wants. I'm just makin' some comments.
Aaron,
“Maybe if people actually attended the indult--I was there a few weeks ago and "sparsely attended" is a generous description for it--we would have some more traction in demanding a permanent parish or two.”
I’m sorry, but I used to attend a “HEAVELY ATTENDED” weekly Indult in HB for years that was unceremoniously canceled by the local bishop. I watched a wonderful traditional community scattered. I apologize if I cannot be as Pollyannaish as others.
I missed the fact that Q did ask for your advice. I would like to hear some positive stories about tradition/orthodoxy in LA too.
BVMM
“I look forward to seeing you at the next "helicopter mass"...right?”
Aren’t you in Bavaria?
Which "sparsley attended" Indult is everyone talking about, because the one I attend in Duarte on the 2nd Sunday in a very large chapel is packed.
I also attended the Mass in Huntington Beach before Bishop Brown so cruelly yanked it away.
Most of those good people have had to go to an independent chapel in Garden Grove to worship, thanks to the 'wonderful' pastoral sensitivity of Bishop Brown. I guess a petition with over 1500 signatures and tons of letters and phone calls does not qualify as "sufficient interest".
Some here think that if we can pack the indults and try to be really congenial the Cardinal is going to find a warm spot in his heart for traditionalists. The problem is that we have packed the indults and tried to be congenial but have been stomped down.
Well...anonymous 2:25pm....it seems you are going to be stomped down by the Cardinal...whether you pack the indults or not. So, why not continue to attend the indults and focus on living the faith as fully as possible under whatever adverse conditions the Cardinal imposes, because clearly this Cardinal is making it hard for the traditionalists......and all the bitching and moaning doesn't seem to deter him. It doesn't seem to matter whether the approach is congenial or not...unfortunately....the Vatican doesn't seem like they're in a rush to do anything about him....so, it seems we're left to live our faith fully by our own efforts.....we'll just have to be willing to make the extra effort it takes in LA.
Dear Anonymous 3:13,
I wasn't planning on doing anything else.
“And all the bitching and moaning doesn't seem to deter him”
What makes you think he’s heard any bitching and moaning?
Maybe the Cardinal is oblivious. I’m sure he’s surrounded by a bunch of liberals who are pushing their vision on him all the time. He probably never hears a conservative or traditional opinion. The average person in the pew might not be for all these changes but when there are no other voices to the contrary they’ll just go along. Maybe we haven’t bitched and moaned enough?
I hear you......but I have a hard time believing the Cardinal is oblivious...although it's a possibility. It seems he has an agenda and disregards the traditionalists and the magisterium willingly. It just seems that the more I bitch and moan the less I'm focused on living Catholicism in it's fullness.....but maybe that's a personal problem! Anyway, thanks for the response....I appreciate your perspective and insight.
Well, he's probably not oblivious. However, for every orthodox opinion he hears he probaly hears 20 liberal opinions. That's why it doesn't seem like we need to quiet because we'd just be letting the liberals run the table.
I will stop now.
Be understanding, show the postive, be persuasive.
Pleeeese!
We are living in times that if nothing was said even the stones would shout.
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