"Keep the faith" but...
A Catholic in our Archdiocese reports seeing a bumper sticker the other day that reads,
Keep the Faith -- Change the Church
Voice of the Faithful
Talk about a Protestant formulation! Keep what faith? Faithful to what?
You cannot separate Faith and the Church.
How can anyone think Jesus founded His Church and sent the Holy Spirit upon Her, but His Church has still been wrong about practically everything, and for a whopping 2,000 years?
Sorry, Voice of the Faithful -- and the Word and Life group I posted about the other day -- but you sure sound faithful only to your own egos and your own dated, Sixties-leftover ideology. You say you are trying to change the Church; but you are trying to change the Faith. Please pray for the humility that we all need...and for willingness to listen to others (namely, Christ's Vicar on Earth and the Holy Spirit-inspired Magisterium of the Church).
Keep the Faith -- Change the Church
Voice of the Faithful
Talk about a Protestant formulation! Keep what faith? Faithful to what?
You cannot separate Faith and the Church.
How can anyone think Jesus founded His Church and sent the Holy Spirit upon Her, but His Church has still been wrong about practically everything, and for a whopping 2,000 years?
Sorry, Voice of the Faithful -- and the Word and Life group I posted about the other day -- but you sure sound faithful only to your own egos and your own dated, Sixties-leftover ideology. You say you are trying to change the Church; but you are trying to change the Faith. Please pray for the humility that we all need...and for willingness to listen to others (namely, Christ's Vicar on Earth and the Holy Spirit-inspired Magisterium of the Church).
posted by Quintero at 9:41 PM
18 Comments:
I honestly don't understand why this type doesn't change the population of the Church by simply leaving.
Changing the Church is a two-millenia old enterprise. In that 2000 years, nothing essential ever changes but accidentals and incidntals are certainly open to change. Should we return to the older tradition of ordaining married men to the priesthood in the Latin Church? Should bishops be popularly elected as they were in the early Church? Should we continue to allow Mass to be celebrated according to the 1962 revisions of the Missal of Pope St. Pius V? No mater how one answers these questions, the Faith itself remains intact even though the Church may have experienced change.
Father g,
The only times that priest were elected was before there were any seminaries, and they weren't elected but taught by older priests. Before then, they were appointed by the Apostles.
It sounds like you, in spite of your leanings toward traditionalism, are a product of St. John's!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
My rejoinder to the Keep the Faith slogan is:
(You've) lost the faith, change churches!
I didn't post my two-cents worth to enter into a debate, but I must point out that the early Church chose bishops, even the Bishop of Rome, by popular election. However. the main thrust of my point is that the Church is a living organism and if it were to stop changing, it would die. The Holy Spirit Who is the Soul of the Church guarantees that nothing essential ever changes. So, while I agree that Voice of the Faithful is a goofy organization, the idea of "Keep the Faith, Change the Church" is an affirmation of our historical tradition, not a challenge to it.
Msgr. Weber at Mission San Fernando said in a recent homily (for Pentacost, maybe?):
"Faithful to Christ cannot be seperated from fidelity to the Church."
I thought it was nice turn of phrase - and I'm sure many others have expressed this same sentiment. But it was nice to hear it in Los Angeles.
Reverend and Dear Father FXB,
Good one! Your slogan is a lot more honest than the bumper sticker.
The 'Spirit of Vatican II' blowhards will eventually pass away. Unfortunately for us who are stuck with them we will need to pray for them and their revertion to our faith.
Reverend and Dear Father G,
It would be nice if we could give these groups the benefit of the doubt (so to speak). It would be nice if they did not want to change essentials. But they do, unfortunately.
I would like to ask them: "Is your bumper sticker really 'an affirmation of our historical tradition, not a challenge to it?'"
Is it an affirmation of the Church's tradition, or a challenge to it, when these groups disobey the Pope's pronouncement that the Church may not ordain women?
Is it an affirmation of the Church's tradition, or a challenge to it, when dissenters attack Catholic morality by lobbying for contraception, abortion and, in Bishop Doran's word, "buggery?"
The only history that such betrayals belong to is the long, irrational and sordid history of the schismatics and heretics.
The best favor we can do for the members of these groups is to be frank with them, tell them they are challenging essentials, and pray they come home to Rome.
Dear Mike,
Thanks very much for posting Msgr. Francis Weber's remark that we cannot separate faith in Christ and fidelity to the Church.
It is totally on target for our discussion here, isn't it!
Dear Tito,
I agree with you that the Spirit of Vatican II-ites will fade away.
Somehow they have forgotten that Jesus told the Apostles, "Who hears you, hears Me."
Dear Anonymous 10:35 p.m.,
That is a good turn of phrase -- "change the population of the Church." Thank you!
We can hope they will reverse course; some of them must do so.
Hmmm....is our cardinal archbishop closer to the VOTF viewpoint or to Church teaching? Or maybe, judging from the farce that is Congress, the motto could be "Change the faith AND the Church. I'm just sayin'.
Sad times, these, at least in LA.
Paul in Long Beach
I can only tell you all that Cardinal Mahony has never attacked VOTF at the Congress as he has Concerned Roman Catholics of America. Come to think of it, thanks be to God for that!
Father g, I never said anything about Bishops, I just refuted your claim that priests were elected!
Kenneth M. Fisher
Hey y'all this will cheer you up:
http://www.splendoroftruth.com/curtjester/archives/007074.php
My linking doesn't seem to work well here. Oh well try this-
splendoroftruth.com/curtjester/archives/007074.php
For the record, I never said anything about priests being elected--I referred only to bishops.
father g,
I stand corrected, you only mentioned Bishops, and I was wrong in applying it to priest. I guess I heard it so many times at the REC that I superimposed it on what you actually wrote, sorry.
In a sense, Bishops are elected today just as they were then, but now we have a bureaucracy that does the electing and recommending.
In the light of many fairly recent appointments going so bad, I think it is time that the Church take a long hard look at the current method. Sanctity should always be considered way ahead of organizational ability and fund raising ability. A good holy Bishop can always bring in administrators.
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
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